As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. She offers the following highly imaginative description of this burning refuse heap, which serves as a nice, detailed amalgamation of all the descriptions Ive heard of it over the years. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. "You have paid for your lewdness and your abominations, says the Lord. And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. Gehenna, garbage dump or a place of eternal punishment?/ Gordon Franz., Gordon Franz. Thanks for the article! Out of six major "seminaries" in the early church, four taught universal salvation, one taught annihilation (Ephesus)and one taught eternal punishment (Rome). So you don't want to "blot them out", you want to "reconcile all" but again this is just utter disrespect to human beings and their free will, which in turn is a denial of the opportunity to love. Marcos you're welcome to reject the doctrine of eternal torment, but don't pretend that this blogpost or the Bible gives any support to your view. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. Neovia group's primary competitors include Hi-Pro Feeds, NUTRI Feeds, Purina Animal Nutrition LLC and 8 more. It was like the time of the reproach of the daughters of Syria and all those around her, and of jthe daughters of the Philistines, who despise you everywhere. In fact, near as anyone can tell, the earliest mention we have of this theory comes a Rabbi named David Kimhi who wrote a commentary on Psalm 27 in the 13th Century. That did not happen. Why should it end? Check out Matt 25:46. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. I find it much easier to explain passages such as Matthew 25:46 in light of the above verses. Then he mentions the case of those who would cross from the place of suffering over to "Abraham's bosom". I don't believe that and I don't believe the last commenter does either. This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. It is the birthplace of the yugoloths, which dwell here in great numbers. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Again, the torment is the separation. One is that the age-during is modified by what it refers to. You claim that Jude talks about Sodom suffering eternal fire but that's not the clear reading of the text. If that seems unfair in your eyes, so be it . The verses are clearly parallel, so that eternal MUST mean the same for the blessed and the cursed. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. Why should anyone want to go out when God and all his people and everything good is inside. Even though the word "Gehenna" comes from the Valley of Hinnom, simply rendering it as "garbage dump" or "valley of waste disposal" or "burning garbage" could not be an accurate translations, because that's not what Jesus and the apostles meant when they used the word. Gehenna - The Prophetic Garbage Dump. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. The Valley of Hinnom, named Gehenna in Greek, lies just outside the city of Jerusalem. I don't and hence I will make this a short one. Regarding individuals, councils excommunicated those that refused to accept a definition reached (or for crimes i.e. There are plenty of parallel verses that teach the salvation of all that must be explained away if you want to cling to a doctrine of eternal torture. McBride has more details and the sources in his post. THE LAST ENEMY TO BE DESTROYED IS DEATH! I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. But I doubt that it was "never condemned", it certainly was in Origen's case. "Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment?". So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? The Burning Garbage Dump of Gehenna is a myth - posted in Archaeology, Biblical History & Textual Criticism: I've long accepted (without checking - shame on me) the argument that in NT Jerusalem, the valley of Hinnom contained a permanently burning garbage dump, and lay behind the use of Gehenna as a metaphor for complete and total destruction. If He only referred to Gehenna itself, a garbage dump that was used as an incinerator outside the city of Jerusalem, the teachers of the law and the Pharisees in Jesus' time had nothing to do with the judgment of Gehenna. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. Hell fire, Gehenna the garbage dump with its constantly burning fire. In times of war, decaying human flesh mingled with the rotting garbageimagine the vile vision. The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. Jeremiah is explicit that such occurred here: Jeremiah 7:3132 (ESV) And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind. For some reason this comment got swallowed up yesterday: "You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. And of course, the worm did not die there, meaning that there were always new maggots going through their life-cycles, feeding on the trash. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. ), "And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.". It means that there is no coming back from this destruction. There are a lot of things we need to be saved from at this point, but there will come a point when there will be nothing we need to be saved from. PDF. Jerome also used the phrase "en aeturnum et ultra" ("in eternity and beyond") in his commantary on Collosians. During the reign of King Josiah (640-609 B.C. Gehenna became a place where corpses of criminals, dead animals, and all manners of refuse were thrown to be destroyed. be anathema!) Gehenna, or the valley of Hinnom, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. The word Gehenna was the Greek transliteration of g-ben-hinnom (the valley of the sons of Hinnom), an actual geographical site in Jerusalem named after a real person. I am talking about the entire early Church, which did not adhere to your universal salvation theology. Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! By Patrick Hunt - Gehenna is an old Hebrew toponym (place name) that began as a literal, physical location - the Valley of Hinnom - and gradually transformed into a metaphor for hell through various processes including religious defilement. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before.". Click the card to flip On three occasions, gehenna is paired with (G4442, pyr, "fire") to read "hell fire" (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47). Isaiah closes his book with these words: Isaiah 66:24 (ESV) And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. valleys of the sons of Hinnom. For more details, see copyright information. Nice work. The wonderful promise that is "You lot will experience everlasting happiness while the rest of the world suffers unimaginable torment for eternity"? But the old Jerusalem had a "dung gate", where the trash was taken out of the city. Sodom and Gommorah were famous cities, and distinct in their time. This place existed at the time Jesus spoke these very words. In Israel's past, it was used as a place of child sacrifice. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. Your email address will not be published. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased,grace abounded all the more, 21 so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. Out of six major "seminaries" ". Are you referring to Origen? Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. And then "the age" is either eternal both times or it is temporal. Punishment of this type is eternal. Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? Matt. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . If 'aeturnum' always means 'eternal' then Jerome put his foot in his mouth when he wrote this. 'Gehenna is a repugnant place, into which filth and cadavers are thrown, and in which fires perpetually burn in order to consume the filth and bones; on which account, by analogy, the judgement of the wicked is called 'Gehenna.'' Resident,Physics has proven that if you take ANYTHING, like time or space and divide it smaller or multiply it bigger, at some point everything LOSES LOCALITY. The idea is that the Valley of Hinnon laid just south of Jerusalem, immediately outside its walls,and that all the refuse and waste from Jerusalem was burned there, and it was pretty much the most disgusting and horrifying place on earth. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. Therefore, behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when it will no more be called Topheth, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Topheth, because there is no room elsewhere. But you are faking compassion you don't want the damned to suffer but have no problem with seeing them dead. Fears becalmed. Specifically, Bailey states: New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. It is not "people" who ingore context but you who are grasping at straws of literal nitpicking to justify your beliefs in the light of what Christ or others as recorded in Scripture clearly taught.]. 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell (Gehenna - garbage dump) fire.29) And if thy right eye . Obviously, this fire is not still burning today, so this fire had an "age to come" or better put a "forever result" quality to it vs. a duration quality to it. How does this work? Everything is all tied together in one. The place served as an incinerator where fires were kept burning to dispose of rubbish. Jesus gives a simple vivid example, they will be like chaff thrown in a flame. 9:28 or was that Is. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). I would look at a phrase like this and wonder how anyone who didn't want to be deceived could think that it was talking about anything less than the rest of eternity: . You however are reading things into the words "aion" and "aionian". . And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? My time, unfortunately, is limited too. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. For example, eternal salvation doesn't mean God is saving us daily (rather an eternal result of a one time event) just as eternal judgment not mean God is tormenting the lost daily, rather the one time event (the second death) had eternal result as well. If all men could be saved, it would be great, but we are long past this (let alone all creatures). The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. Connection between Greek word used for "Hell," and garbage dumb. Thus already in Old Testament times, the Valley of Hinnom was associated with the destiny of the wicked. oh my. Two different thoughts on the Matthew verse. Put simply, there is no evidence that the valley was, in fact, a perpetually burning garbage dump. Mk. The three layers of Hades were called glooms for good reason; they were realms devoid of emotion, hope, and peace. Should a Complementarian Speak with Lady Preachers? And it is obviously contradicting the parable to consider what could happen after the feast for if the kingdom is like that feast and there would be an afterwards, it would no longer be eternal. Cog of Blood. He got into trouble with a lot of people over many things, but one area of his teaching was never assailed by any church council and that was his teaching on universal salvation.". At least until a council comes along decades later and says that anyone not confessing a belief in an "eternal hell" is not a Christian? It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. And it is obviously contradicting the parable to consider what could happen after the feast for if the kingdom is like that feast and there would be an afterwards, it would no longer be eternal. There is BTW no clear verse saying that the kingdom would have an end, many things that speak against it. Is that decree retroactive? Diana Group Profile and History . I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. The punishment is given with the goal of improving the one punished. No council ever did that! Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. Required fields are marked *. ", Ezekiel 16:55 "When thy sisters, SODOM AND HER DAUGHTERS SHALL RETURN TO THEIR FORMER ESTATE, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.". At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed(Biblical Researches, vol. But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. If eternal hell doctrine is so clearly taught in scripture as we have been told, where was the protest over these men even being allowed to attend the council, much less play major roles? I find the scriptures remarkable, and you, sir, have nailed these difficult questions to the cross itself. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. Jesus actually never talked about eternal torment. When the food source dries up, these moths have nowhere to lay their eggs! It can't. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. Where are you getting this? Are there going to be new moons and sabbaths in eternity? If it had been one, we would expect to find evidence. He does not say say that Sodom underwent "punishment of eternal fire" but that Sodom is an example for those that will.]. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! First, you still seem to think you are in a position to lecture Christ on how to conduct his affairs. "I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it.". To die and go hell is being separated from God and since Jesus said, And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (Matt 25:46). Outline of Biblical Usage [?] It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. Instead we have bibles that translate 'aion' and 'aionion' in several different ways. It is also very instructive to study the writings of the early church fathers and church history to see how prevalent a belief universal salvation was, and then compare the conditions that surrounded the second council at Constantinople where they decided that a confession of belief in an eternal hell was one of the conditions for being accepted into "the church". Gehenna, more commonly known as the Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the Son of Hinnom or Valley of the Children, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. My last post was too long so here's the rest . Thats it. I believe you need to be alive to feel the effects of punishment. Second, the whole passage is disproportionate that is the point: that Christ rejects a minimal, just-barely-pass morality but rather sets a very high standard to his followers. He quotes: Edward Robinson, preeminent explorer of the Holy Land beginning in 1838. Eventually, part of Gei Ben Hinnom became a dump, with constant day and night burning of trash fires emitting a sulfurous stench. I brought up a similar situation in the parable of the rich man and Lazarus. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. 19 For as through the one mans disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. One can have a temporal stay with the eternal God. Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. 20:10. What has that got to do with it. Another portion of the ravine became a cesspool receiving the . James A. Montgomery observes this medieval commentators logic, but does not accept it. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. Not unlike the fire of 2 Thes. Which brings us back to our starting point: it is eternal for good and bad or age-enduring for both, not this for one and that for another. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. Most bibles that have copious cross-references for other verses with similarities like this strangely do not have any for this one.). Your idea about "universal salvation" among church fathers is wrongheaded. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. Who is ignoring the context? 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